‘The body and not the soul is immortal’
National Herald, Sunday, March 31, 1991
Interview by Charan Singh Verma
The disarming, charming and alarming “anti-philosopher” U.G. Krishnamurti has an air of unconventionality about him. His views are enigmatic and if heard or read without his presence can be construed either as a product of a supreme intellect or a madman's litany.
U.G., as he is called by his friends, always talks in contradictions and riddles, often leaving you wondering whether he is deliberately being shocking. Here are a few examples:
“Making love is war. The cause and effect theory is fallacious and operates within the religious framework. Yoga and health foods destroy the body; the body and not the soul is immortal. Gorbachev has surrendered to America. There is no freedom in the U.S.A. and no spirituality in India. Service to mankind is utter selfishness. Mutual terror and not love will save mankind. Attending church and going to the bar are identical. There is nothing inside you but fear. Communication is impossible between human beings. Buddha was a crackpot, Jesus was another misguided Jew. Freud is the fraud of the 20th century while J. Krishnamurti is its greatest phoney and Rajneesh and other self-styled gods are conmen.”
The story of this young septuagenarian is no less than a thriller. He was born to a middle-class Brahmin family in Andhra Pradesh, his mother died soon after giving birth to him and on her deathbed said her child was cut out for something “immeasurably high”.
On his 49th birthday, many physical changes took place within him which bewildered the medical men and friends around him. His life thereafter became one in which there was no thought for the morrow nor grief over the past. U.G. describes this as the “natural state”.
It occurred to him, “I have searched everywhere to find an answer to my question, ‘Is there enlightenment?’ but I have never questioned the search itself. Because I have assumed that enlightenment exists, I have had to search and it is the search itself which has been choking me and keeping me out of my natural state. There is no such thing as spirit or psyche at all. I have been a fool all my life, searching for something that does not exist. My search is at an end.”
U.G. nowadays is in Delhi, staying with his friend, Frank Noronha. An American photographer, Julie Thayer, is also accompanying him. Charan Singh Verma went to see him and discuss many of his beliefs, disbeliefs, myths, realities and the questions related to philosophy, religion, culture and of course the questions about this Thinker who shuns thoughts.
While the conversation mainly centred around the philosophy of life, religion, culture, enlightenment, etc, the questions on other national and international events also figured. U.G. began a long oration condemning all the religious teachers, calling them frauds, and then proceeded to tell about the physical changes that took place within him in a distinct style of putting across his views.
On the question on the feminist movement he appreciated India and criticised Switzerland and some other Western countries. He praised Indira Gandhi for her firmness but said he abhors Maggie Thatcher. While condemning Gorbachev for selling Russia to the Americans, he was equally critical of Bush and the Americans saying, “for the Americans, the tragedies of other nations are a source of entertainment.” The conversation concluded on a pessimistic note.
Interview excerpts:
On Nihilism
Q: You say there is no such thing as mind, soul, psyche and individuality. How do you explain this?
A: There is nothing. Our thoughts are not self-generated. They simply respond to stimuli. What we call mind is simply the totality of thoughts, feelings and experiences. The search for peace and mind or the meaning of life is useless because there is neither mind nor meaning. All mystical experiences, transcendental states and spiritual experiences are simply neurological glitches in the brain.
Q: But everything today is the creation of mind?
A: A creativity you are talking about is totally unrelated to the creativity of life. Life is creative, it does not use any model. Everything that we call creative is an imitation, copy of something that is already there.
On “Enlightenment” and the “Natural State”
Q: What is this ‘Natural State’? Is it a synonym for enlightenment?
A: When the living organism is freed from the stranglehold of culture, what you are left with is the natural state. It has nothing to do with enlightenment or ‘God realization’.
Q: How can one be free from its stranglehold?
A: See, what you call culture is responsible for the battle that is going on within everybody. However, the living organism is not interested in the perfect man or the good man or the virtuous man that your concept of culture places before us. The whole of our culture and civilization is built on the foundation of ‘kill or be killed’, first in the name of God symbolised by the Church and all other religious institutions, and in the name of political ideologies, symbolised by the State.
Q: What is your approach towards religion?
A: Religion began somewhere along the evolutionary process when humans began feeling self-conscious and separate from nature. That is what is responsible for this feeling of fear, of feeling lost and all alone.
Q: We hear about enlightenment, the search for peace of mind. What do you feel about these?
A: All talk of enlightenment, search for the truth and search for peace is a hoax perpetuated by spiritual conmen. There is already peace in man, you need not search. The living organism is functioning in an extraordinarily peaceful way. Man's search for truth ends up disturbing and violating the peace that is already there in the body.
On Emotions and Relationships
Q: What about relationships – love?
A: It is not possible to establish any relationship with anything around including the near and dear ones, except on the level of what you get out of this relationship. The whole thing springs from isolation. You see, we are isolated from the rest of creation, from the rest of life around us. So we use others to fill this void. All relationships are based on mutual gratification. As long as they can be directed to serve my personal happiness, there is no conflict, and we also demand that our happiness be permanent. In the very nature of things this is impossible. There is no such thing as permanence at all. Everything is constantly changing, everything is in flux. Because you cannot face the impermanence of all relationships, you live in sentiments, romance and dramatic emotions to give them continuity. Therefore, you are always in conflict and yet society demands not just relationships but permanent relationships.
For love there must be two. I love somebody and somebody else loves me. Wherever there is a division there cannot be any love. We are trying to bridge this gap which we find horrible, with this fancy idea that there must be love between two individuals. I love my life, I love my country... What is the difference? ‘Love thy neighbour as thyself’ – and in the name of all that how many millions of people have been killed? When love fails to establish the perfect ideal relationship between two individuals what we are left with is hate. Love is fascist in its birth, in its content, in its essence, in its expression and in its action.
Q: What is one to do without purpose, relationships, love?
A: Unfortunately, humanity has placed before itself the model of the perfect man. The perfect man is born out of the value system that we have created, and that value system is born out of the behaviour patterns of our great teachers of mankind. Nature is not interested in creating a perfect being but it's interest is to create a perfect species.
Q: What is your approach towards death?
A: It is simply a condition of the human body. There is no such thing as death. The death of you or the death of your near and dear ones is not something you can experience. What you experience is the void created by the unsatisfied demand to maintain the continuity of your relationship with that person.
On National and International Affairs
Q: What are your views on the upliftment of women?
A: That fifty percent of the human race can be an important asset. I have seen some of them govern. Indira Gandhi was so firm. I liked her for her firmness and understanding of the system but I hate that Maggie Thatcher.
Q: You were in the U.S. when the Gulf War was going on. How did you feel there?
A: Americans get entertainment out of everything. They were watching destruction sitting in their drawing rooms. There is no freedom in America, the press was banned all these months of war. And that Gorby has sold Russia to the Americans. He has forced the Russians to beg. In fact this whole world is progressing in the direction of total destruction.
Before taking leave of this charming all-rounder I asked him, “What do we do with our lives then?” U.G. said with his mysteriously infectious smile, “The answer is to stop looking for answers.”
